The following is an answer to a message received from an Atheist. The Atheist’s remarks are in red. The answers are placed in between the remarks of the Atheist. This was a continuing exchange and is an answer to this page: How Could There Have Been Enough People From the Eight on the Ark to the Tower of Babel?
We don’t always publish everything from Atheists on this site. It’s really pretty boring. But this page is here as an example of how you might answer an Atheist if you are engaged in a conversation. Some edits and polishing have been added for instruction sake.
To make an assumption and then call it real is to lie. To make up a story and then call it real is to lie. So, wherever you see made-up story or assumption in this letter, you could just, in your mind, change that to lie.
Did you watch this video I gave you the link for? I assume you didn’t (even though it’s only 2 minutes long) as your explanation for the population problem was laughable, not to mention full of assumptions
Why watch an Atheistic video? Don’t you know that our culture is saturated with Atheistic/Secular-Humanistic-Progressive media that every other person is exposed to every day? Do you think that there is any argument that hasn’t been heard?
The assumptions made were clearly differentiated from the revelation shared with you. It is irrational to think that assumptions are part of reality. To remain rational, assumptions must be recognized as arbitrary. They are pure speculation. Put them at eye-level with the word, “ASSUMPTIONS” written on them so that you never forget that they are vapor.
The point is that all anti-God thinking is based on assumptions and stories. When these made up stories and assumptions are stated as if they were real, this is the same as lying. Assumptions become lies when presented as if they were real. The last letter showed the difference between assumptions and revelation. The blinding problem of paradigms/fake realities makes these things difficult to understand. The problems of paradigms are very real. There is a lot of science on this. In communication theory, they are called filters. In TQM they are called paradigms. Read more about paradigms/fake-realities.
and poor maths.
What do you see as a mathematical error? Here is the math all laid out. How Could There Have Been Enough People From the Eight on the Ark to the Tower of Babel?
To reach your numbers you assume everyone has 10 children by the age of 16. Sorry, that just doesn’t happen.
Actually, they would not need to have 10 children by age 16. They would just need to keep having children after age 16. However, it is likely that they would start having children at a young age. They were not going to college or high school or any school at all. But, if they waited until they were older, there still would have been enough time to have enough children because we don’t know how many people were working on the Tower of Babel, so we don’t know how many we would need.
Just think, properly, how many people three couples (not four, I already said that)
Where did you put Noah and his wife? Are you assuming that they had no more children? Suppose that you assume that they didn’t. The Bible only mentions three sons, but doesn’t say that there were no other sons and daughters. So, you could assume that if you like, but not to prove impossibility. Even if there were only three sons, there is still nothing that makes the history recorded in the Bible impossible. So many Atheists try to prove that the history recorded in the Bible is impossible by making assumptions that would make it impossible. However, changing the arbitrary assumptions makes it possible. By making assumptions, it becomes possible to rationalize anything–even no-God, Evolution, millions/billions of years, no-flood, or thinking that certain kinds of sin are OK. But even if we make all those assumptions there is enough time because we don’t know how many people were working on the Tower of Babel, so we don’t know how many people we would need.
can produce in 100 years.
Not to quibble, but it would be 106 at a minimum—but it could have been more. However, even in 100 years, there is enough time because we don’t know how many people were working on the Tower of Babel, so we don’t know how many we would need.
If you’d watched the video, you will have been asked to think about your own family tree and how many members of your own family
Pure arbitrary assumption that they would have done what my family has done. It’s much more likely they had large families. You are trying to project the 20thCentury culture into the distant past. Assumption versus revelation again.
there have roughly been in the last 100 years. “Extended lifespan and pure gene pool” is irrelevant as there is no evidence
Of course there is evidence—revelation is the best evidence. But, in proving that God isn’t right, you must have everything that God is saying. God says that their lifespans were extended and we ought to believe Him rather than arbitrary assumpions.
(Bible doesn’t count)
On what basis does the Bible not count? God has revealed to those who follow Him that the Bible is His Word , without error, and that He speaks through it. Some people assume that this is not true because it doesn’t fit into their paradigms/fake-realities that they have built as a wall between themselves and God. Other than from the Bible, and eliminating all the assumptions and made-up stories, all that is left is direct revelation from God. God chose to preserve the Bible to us and to speak through it on these issues.
; where are the fossils of human beings who lived to hundreds of years?
Fossils don’t actually have labels on them to say how long they lived.
Where is the evidence of this “pure genome”?
This is also a case of purely arbitrary assumption versus revelation. However, we are watching the genome degenerate quite quickly using real science. Extending the present rate or damage forward in time, the human race would go extinct in the alarmingly near future. So, extending the present decay rate back in time to the flood would show a pure genome.
And even if it was “pure” (free of imperfections, kind of like what Hitler wanted to achieve)
Hitler was using poor science—evolution.
, that doesn’t help the fact that the gene pool would’ve been too small. Six people simply cannot contain all the genetic variation of the human race;
Actually, genetics proves otherwise. If they were medium brown, which is likely, they would have had everything to produce any tone (and other traits) within one generation. When living things become isolated and interbreed between those who have lost information in the genome, they eventually lose that information completely. True speciation is exactly this kind of information loss. See Creation Answers Book, Chapter 18.
this was already pointed out by Kees de Vries. Any population geneticist I know would tell you that less than ten individuals is not enough to maintain a viable population.
That would be a problem for evolution then. It had to start somewhere. However, if people don’t follow the current modern trend of having tiny familes that indeed cannot maintain a viable population with all the genetic information that we have lost since the flood, if people have larger families as they did in the not so distant past and still do in some societies, a population can actually grow.
The maths and the genetics just do not work out.
Actually, the math and genetics work just fine as demonstrated. If someone wants to project their own 21st century family into the past making the assumption that everything continues into the past exactly as it is now, that is just an arbitrary assumption and not very probable. Interestingly, God foretold that in the last days there would be some people who made the assumption that everything continues as it is now.
The global flood didn’t happen.
That’s a made-up story based on assumption versus revelation.
Evidence against Creation: world is dated as 4.54 billion years old by multiple means.
Evidence is for Creation and against Big-Bang, Evolution, and Old-Earthism.
It is actually silly to say that everything created itself because of the First Law of Thermodynamics and the Law of Cause and Effect. It is silly to say that everything always existed because the Second Law of Thermodynamics would result in no matter and evenly distributed heat throughout the entire Universe.
Evolution doesn’t work because of the scientific Laws of Universal Information that make it scientifically impossible. See Without Excuse by Werner Gitt. See also: Information Theory Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4. Here is another interesting article.) More is constantly being learned about information and about the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Evolutionists tend to hide in the weeds of the unknown with an argument from ignorance: “If you can’t prove, by empirical science, that evolution is impossible, then it happened.” By empirical science alone, we can only prove probabilities. The probabilities show the Big-Bang-Billions-of-Years-No-Flood-Molecules-to-Man story to be a bazaar hypothesis, a story that is so improbable that it should not be considered. However, empirical science is not a tool that can prove anything to be true or false absolutely. For absolute proof, we have revelation. (See Basic and Concise Guide to Practical, Useful Logic and Reasoning). God says that He created everything. He is the One Who enforces the laws of nature. He is the One Who will judge all of us in the end. We know that because we know Him presonally through the indwelling Presence of Jesus Christ and the moment-by-moment instruction of the Holy Spirit.
Every method of trying to determine the age of the Earth, other than revelation, is based on circular reasoning. If you change the assumptions, you change the age. None of these methods can be used without making assumptions. All of these methods can also show the Earth to be a few thousand years old by simply changing the arbitrary assumptions. However, these multiple methods are only the tip of the iceburg. There are many methods of calculating the age of the Earth and the Universe. Keeping the same assumptions with all of these methods results in most of them coming up with a very young Earth. See Index Fossils.
We are not dogmatically claiming to know that the Earth is 6,000 years old. We know that God created the Heavens and the Earth in six days and we know the number of generations between Adam and Christ. That’s about it. Even though a plain reading of Scripture seems to indicate a young Earth; even though there is zero observed evidence and only circular reasoning and speculations that support old Earth stories, we can’t even deny the possibility that God could have done something that Scripture doesn’t hint at and that has left no scientific evidence. It is possible. It just is not worth the time to think about it.
No question. No debate.
I suppose you think you have authority to impose this restriction. Perhaps you might want to explain how you get this authority.
It is not less than 10,000 years old.
This is an interesting story based on assumption as opposed to revelation. Note that no evidence is presented. It isn’t a logical argument but merely an unsupported conclusion.
The most ancient humans were apparently found recently as around 400,000 years old.
This story is assumption based as opposed to revelation. Again, no evidence is presented for this.
You have used irrational statements and made-up stories
Correction, revelation. It is true the revelation doesn’t fit into the Secular Humanist fake-reality that so many built in their minds to shield themselves from God, but if you were to open your mind to God, He would even reveal this to you.
even in this email to me, and what is shocking is that you do not seem to realise they are: “I have told you that I know this by revelation from God. Everyone who follows Jesus is led by Jesus. Christian is a word that means different things to different people. Some of those people are actually following Jesus and being led by Him. Jesus reveals Himself to us. Jesus reveals to us that the Bible is God’s Word and that it is without error and that God speaks to us through the Bible. And the Holy Spirit does speak to us through the Bible. And He tells us that the flood and creation happened.”
What makes you think that actual experience of reality is a made up story?
You’ve kept going on about this kind of thing and it simply isn’t convincing,
It surely doesn’t seem to fit into your paradigm/fake-reality. I understand and sympathize. However, everyone who seeks Christ finds Him. If you were to open your mind to Him in sincerity, He would reveal Himself to you.
at least to non-believers.
It doesn’t fit into the paradigm of unbelievers. Non-believers are different as they are more open-minded to the Holy Spirit. Non-believers turn to Christ all the time. The human mind wasn’t created to be used without the Anointing of the Holy Spirit. We were meant to be joined to God in order to function properly. The walk with Christ is a walk into the complete joining with God, which will be called the manifestation of the sons of God when it takes place. Unbelievers have set themselves against God. Non-believers are open-minded.
You need to do better than that.
Why? Do you think that someone has a responsibility before God to convince you? If you won’t listen to God when He is speaking to you all the time, why would you listen to anyone else? The reason that you don’t believe is not anyone’s fault other than your own. Faith/belief comes by hearing the utterance of God. All you need to do is to acknowledge Him.
Is this all your reason for your belief?
Direct revelation is the reason for anyone’s belief in truth. The only other alternative is made-up stuff to interpret what you see, what can be. Belief/faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by the utterance of God. God’s utterance is powerful and able to create. By it He created everything you see. By it, He creates supernatural belief and trust in the innermost soul/mind. By it He creates a new heart (innermost mind/soul) in us. (some caveats about hearing God’s Voice)
Because the Bible says so?
It is by direct revelation that we know that the Bible is the Word of God and without error. God speaks to us through the Bible. We don’t worship the Bible. The Bible remains the dead letter of the word until God speaks through it, just as the creation makes no sense until God reveals Himself through it. Both of these do no good for the person who has set himself/herself against God to be willingly ignorant and to refuse to acknowledge God. When they refuse to acknowledge Him and let Him be their God, He turns them over to their own reprobate minds so that they do evil things and will receive the just judgment for their deeds. The kicker is that they know that God is their Creator and they know that He is just and that He will judge their stubbornness and rebellion against Him, but they willingly choose to ignore Him and fail to acknowledge Him. Romans 1.
The Bible says a lot of things, but if you followed and believed all of what it says, you’d be a moron…and possibly dead.
You are probably trying to interpret the Bible by your fallen, reprobate mind, which is worthless. You need to listen to the Voice of God as you read it. Through it, the Creator God of the Universe speaks to whoever will acknowledge Him and listen.
“He also tells us that in the last day there will be some people who are willingly ignorant who will deny the creation, the flood, and the coming judgment. Just think, you get to fulfill God’s prophetic word.”
If you do what is right, there is nothing to fear. If you think and act stupidly, you are simply walking into the judgment that you know about, and you would be very foolish not to fear.
Well, actually, people have been “willingly ignorant” (not believers) since Christianity began;
Some people have rejected Christ. They have indeed been willingly ignorant. Others have believed Christ to some degree and have entered into His promises to some degree.
what were the Romans doing as they crucified Jesus? So this isn’t much of a prophecy, is it? And don’t even get me started on how many other prophecies have not come true: (A reference was given here to an agressively Atheistic website.)
This statement is also based on made-up stories versus revelation of Truth—I won’t get into it, but have you read, Without Excuse by Werner Gitt?
God has never revealed himself to me,
He has revealed Himself to you. I know that by revelation. If nothing else, He has revealed Himself to you through the creation. He says, “For the invisible things of God since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even His everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse.” His revelation is progressive, but it appears that you are very closed-minded toward Him. In fact, in the things that are written in this letter, there may be some things that have come from the fallen nature, but there are many things that are directly Christ speaking to you through the writer whether you are willing to acknowledge Him or not.
although I went to a Church of England school, happily listened to Biblical stories, prayed, went to church, sang hymns and never openly challenged his existence until fairly recently.
If you have read any Bible at all you have heard His Voice. You may not have recognized it or acknowledged it. One person got filled with the Holy Spirit because God spoke to him through the Bible as it was being quoted by a pastor who didn’t believe in the infilling of the Holy Spirit. God speaks to you and to every person.
So if this God has not revealed itself to me, how does it expect me to believe in it and how can it “justly” punish me for not believing?
The “if” statement is what messes up your reasoning. He has revealed Himself to you. At some time, you chose not to listen. It would be difficult for an outsider to know anything about your church or the people you were with there. Many churches just don’t seem to ever have a real experience with Christ. Some people go to great churches and never have an experience with Christ. If the Bible is read, someone else’s shortcoming doesn’t stop you from having a real experience with Christ.
I wouldn’t expect it to be a very harsh punishment, so why should I be afraid?
If you have never lied, cheated, dishonored or ignored or failed to acknowledge God in any way, rejected His mercy and means of salvation, stolen anything, defiled the sacredness of sex, gotten angry, wanted what someone else has or wanted them not to have what they have because of envy, God will be just and fair. He will be more fair than you would be if you were Almighty God and had created everything, had all righteousness, knowledge, wisdom, and understanding, and were the only source of love and compassion.
Why should I care?
That is for you to answer. You may think about this as you remember this conversation from time to time.
But I don’t believe any of it anyway
I know that you know that God exists and you know that He is just. I know this by revelation. He says that He made it evident to you in His creation. I see that you have accepted a lie about the creation to keep yourself from acknowledging God. God says that you do this because you love darkness rather than light—because you love sin more than righteousness.
and the whole sin thing and Jesus dying for us is completely ludicrous and makes no sense whatsoever.
This is an unsupported made-up story based on assumption that rejects God’s revelation. His revelation refutes this unverifiable statement.
And what if you’re wrong? What if it’s the Muslim or Jewish God or the Flying Spaghetti Monster that’s real
Interestingly, the Muslims pray to Allah (the only word they have for God in the Arabic) that He will show them truth. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims are turning to Christ because Christ comes to them in dreams and visions. They are persecuted as a result and many of them are killed. Read Miraculous Movements.
The Jews (not the people group but the religion) serve the same God that we do, but they refuse to receive His manifestation and salvation. They are still the chosen people of God.
and they’re going to punish you for not believing in them when you die?
That would be quite an arbitrary assumption (were we to make such an assumption) given the revelation of Himself that God has given those who follow Jesus Christ. Islam and Judaism knows no such revelation. Occult religions do, and with good reason. They are dealing with demons (earth spirits) who do communicate but who lie.